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Does a Bitcoin app need to use the blockchain? I’ve been *very* impressed with Powping. Paradoxically though, it’s probably true that its main innovation is that it doesn’t use the blockchain. I’m curious whether you feel this is a needed rethink of what a Bitcoin app looks like, or does it stretch the limits of what we can truly call a Bitcoin app? Has the Powping model caused you to rethink the apps you’re working on or inspired you to try different experiments in terms of what does and doesn’t go onchain? PS - I do know that tipping on Powping does put some kind of a hash of the post on chain.
apagut tipped:
I guess one answer is you only NEED to put things on chain when you need a consensus as to their timing. If you need consensus on when a piece of data appeared, you only need to put its hash. But I don't think we're always going to be that conservative, especially since the amount that humans can type is staying steady while the cost of storing and transmitting the things they type is always rapidly decreasing. At some point we're going to say, yes it'd cost a whole $0.00001 to put this on the chain and only $0.000001 to store it off-chain, but it's not worth maintaining such a complicated system to save the $0.000009. I mean consider, the sender has to pay every time to send internet packets, vs you only need to pay to send the data once to put it on Usenet or FidoNet. We don't of course though have very many hybrid systems where the packets you get over the internet are just the location of Usenet posts so you can look up the data. Writing a system like that would be hellishly complicated, and then it'd be far less dependable, so it wouldn't be worth it at all. At some point it gets to be like that, first for text posts and then for images and then for videos, where the cost of bridging to the legacy system is higher than the cost of putting it on the chain. It's also about trust and agreement. Is it technically cheaper to store something off-chain, sure. But who can you trust to commit to paying that lower cost? In practice powping can disappear and take our posts with it, because in practice our agreement is just that powping will pay those lower costs for as long as they feel like it. You could try to form a broader agreement where there's various servers who agree to keep copies of the data available, and they all try to agree on what's the latest valid version of the data, so you can get the data from any of them, but then they'll need a way to agree on who can add how much data at once so the system doesn't get flooded, and we'd want servers to be able to come in and drop out instead of having to have a permanent registry so maybe we could have them self-validate by solving hash puzzles.... oops, reinvented BItcoin, and we already have one of those, so we could just use that.
jas tipped:
Finally people seem to get it!
I think everyone is trying to figure out what data actually belongs on chain and what doesn't 🤔 As long as an app utilizes the distributed, decentralized nature of bitcoin ledger in some way, it is a bitcoin app to me.
jas replied:
The only reason I put data on-chain is because I want to store it or monetize it
libs replied:
@jas you can both store and monetize data without putting it on chain
adonsats tipped:
I want the metanet and I want it to be indexible.
jonathanaird replied:
In short no: Storing everything onchain means you have a Byzantine Fault Tolerant protocol that anyone can implement. However glad that PingPow is experimenting with different ways of doing apps.
With a project I’m currently working on, Powping has caused me to stop and think. The advantages of the Powping approach are pretty compelling - eg ease to get started and accessibility to a far broader audience. But I’m interested in exploring hybrid models. For example if a user chooses to put a post onchain, can it be ranked or viewed in some way differently to an offchain post. I haven’t fully fleshed out my thinking yet but this is the kind of idea I’m toying with.
adonsats replied:
add to this combinaison crypted data for hidden conversations 😎 There for sure we will compete. We will write a war history when I will sale this tech to some smart presidents.
Does a bitcoin app need Script ?
libs replied:
Ha thats good. Every tx that spends a utxo uses Script. But certainly you don't need to know Script or have to create custom contracts to build an app (although I think we'll see a lot more of Script soon).
Not at all. Utxo are internet packets. Powping is using another blockchain: Hyperledger 🤪🤪🤪 Powping is just killing all those fake chain out there with a social data structure as use case.
libs tipped:
"Has the Powping model caused you to rethink the apps you’re working on or inspired you to try different experiments in terms of what does and doesn’t go onchain?" Definitely. I'm totally rebuilding Haichan right now and PowPing has been a huge influence.
libs tipped:
I'd love to see somebody make an on-chain archive of Powping. (I wonder if that's in the works...) But seeing how well it functions has absolutely made me rethink apps. Paradoxically, because it's not a limited ecosystem, it's already more open than competitors.
libs tipped: