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I'm struggling a bit now with this BS, how to deal with it? It's my son's 18th birthday today so we all went to the pub in town to celebrate. At the door to the pub: "Do you have a mask, sir?" "No, I don't" "You can't come in then sir." "I'm exempt" Doorman, to other member of staff. "This man says he exempt. OK no problem sir, have you booked a table?" "I don't want food just a pint at the bar please" "Sorry sir, it's illegal to drink at the bar and we're fully booked." I look around the pub on a Saturday night and there is probably one third of the number of people this time last year and it's "full". This was repeated three times in three pubs. They lost business and soured an otherwise pleasant day. So, in the UK it's ILLEGAL TO DRINK AT THE BAR. The fun police are having their way and the sheep are lapping it up. Went to a restaurant later. "Do you have a mask sir?" "No, I don't" "OK sir, no problem". (I'm in a fucking restaurant, why would I wear a sodding mask?) I look round and anyone that moves from their table dons a mask. WTF is wrong with everybody? Getting depressed now. Just needed to vent.
liam tipped:
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1 year ago
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A blog post referencing a study showing lockdowns and masks are ineffective. Mask use may even increase the incidence of the spread of the SC-2 virus. https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/new-study-lockdowns-masks-are-useless-and-might-even-increase-covid-19-spread/
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orac tipped:
I think this should be added here to keep minds focused on freedom... a beautiful day to do it too.... 15 November, Bitcoin Independence Day "Düsseldorf forced to lift face mask rule after court ruling" https://twitter.com/LibertyVigilan2/status/1327628270599364613
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marquee replied:
Nice, thanks for sharing.
Adding to this, the blog post in this link discusses mask use possibly increasing the incidence of covid transmission! https://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-black/points-of-information/in-europe-the-use-of-masks-leads-to-more-covid-19-cases/
Doctors are concerned about mask use in Oz: https://twitter.com/realsirquacks/status/1322881585855688704?s=20
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orac replied:
As are dentists. Apparently mask use encourages mouth-breathing leading to an increase in oral bacteria which increases tooth and gum disease.
Things will get much more ugly then it is now . We are on a free falling plane and the pilots keep repeating ; trust the plan trust the plan. Well , the Plane , is falling , that's the fact.
miggy replied:
It's always darkest before the dawn. Hang in there friend. We're winning.
I like all of you guys, and I like PowPing, so I'm kind of distressed to read this thread. I have an open mind and read widely, but the claim that science proves masks don't work is patently false. It has worked in Asian countries for years to fight flu and infections, and in fact surgeons wear masks during surgery to stop the spread of infections in vulnerable patients. Beyond the many scientific studies proving it, anecdotal evidence bears it out. But I like you people and have an open mind, so I looked at some of the evidence you linked to. It took me 2 minutes to realize there was nothing to it at all. For example, thebernician claims "COVID-19 was reclassified by the UK government from being a serious public health risk to an easily manageable one," and links to the gov.uk source which says clearly: "The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response." The conclusion of thebernician? "Upon the available evidence, the only logical answer is that the bill was passed in order to use a manufactured public health crisis as a mask for a totalitarian power grab" That is not evidence, and that is not proof, and that is not news, and that is not what happened. I'm imploring you people to please read closely and critically, because this is super-important and serious. We are all tired of this coronavirus, everyone is. We are all frustrated. And I understand the need to vent publicly online, but let's not let that frustration make us vulnerable to misinformation that appeals to those feelings and play into the hands of those who would mislead us. Let's keep our heads on straight!
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glauce replied:
That was very nice@sandysmoothie! You put you thoughts kindly and seem to have considered things very carefully, but so have some of us who may seem rushed to you. We are in this together, we all need to be able express our thoughts freely, whatever they are, discuss without pointing fingers and eventually come to a consensus. I hope discussions on what matters will not break us apart.
marquee replied:
Explain why deaths per million in Sweden are lower than the UK when they don't wear masks? If you want to wear a mask, then by all means go for it, but DO NOT mandate everyone else to wear one when the evidence for the efficacy is flimsy at best.
orac tipped:
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1 year ago
sandysmoothie replied:
Check out this roundup of all the scientific studies we have on the subject: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191114/ The upshot is that masks are better than nothing
glauce replied:
I think the problem is what is considered reliable information. I like to focus on independent, peer reviewed scientific studies, not on commissioned ones.
mephisto replied:
"Explain why deaths per million in Sweden are lower than the UK when they don't wear masks?"@marquee I wonder if your answer isn't already IN this thread :)
liam replied:
Thanks@sandysmoothie for your comment. Appreciate the tone. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this article: https://lockdownsceptics.org/what-sage-got-wrong/ I’m still working my way through it, but I found interesting what the author said about computer models vs the empirical evidence, echoing what CSW has said. I also agree with@glauce’s sentiment. It’s good to hear both sides without people deteriorating to hatred against each other.
glauce replied:
Thank you for bringing light to the debate@liam The article you linked is very interesting indeed, I am reading it now.... I thought the opening quote deserves a place here too: “It’s Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.” – Mark Twain
orac replied:
@sandysmoothie. Thank you for the mask study you cited. I've had a quick perusal through it but haven't had time to ready it carefully. However, please note that other studies have found masks to be ineffective against flu-like virus transmission: https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article. Also, it's my understanding that surgeons wear masks to prevent the transmission of bacteria, not viruses, and to protect the surgeon from patient bodily fluids. As for mask use in Asia, this is perhaps more to do with sociology, hay-fever mitigation and air pollutant reduction, rather than actual prevention of viruses.
shadders replied:
Anyone who believes that masks are ineffective has obviously never experienced the sheer trauma of sneezing in one...
orac replied:
I cannot say for sure as I'm not a medical researcher but according to this guy the previous 40 years of medical research shows that masks are ineffective against viral transmission. https://youtube.com/watch?v=sHA-a4moDKE
glauce replied:
The problem is the imposition, not the mask - you MUST wear it, or else...!!! @shadders, wherever you stand on the issue of mask effectiveness, I think this has to be seen as a detail
glauce replied:
Lets make the constitutional position of such imposition clear... this may help: Lord Sumption, 2020 Cambridge Freshfields Lecture "Government by decree - Covid-19 and the Constitution". https://resources.law.cam.ac.uk/privatelaw/Freshfields_Lecture_2020_Government_by_Decree.pdf
mephisto replied:
Get a job,@glauce do something productive. Soon the pandemic will be over. You are just noise outside, must be noise inside.
glauce replied:
You again... why so bothered? Be happy, I mean it.
orac replied:
@mephisto. Did you forget rule #1?
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shadders replied:
"The problem is the imposition, not the mask" Is it an imposition that you have to stop your car at a red traffic light when the people coming the other way are privileged and allowed to go through? Yes it's inconvenient but we all agree to do it because we prefer not to die in a collision. I feel rather imposed upon by people walking around spreading diseases when they could easily mitigate that risk. The Japanese seem to have figured this out decades ago. When you see them on the subway wearing masks, they are doing it to protect themselves. They're doing it protect other people FROM themselves. I get that it's an imposition and it's a bit uncomfortable and I don't really like wearing them myself, I wear glasses so the constant fogging affects my vision which is incredibly frustrating. But it's common decency in a pandemic to limit the risk that you pose to others. Seriously, sneeze in a mask and take a look at the disgusting mess it leaves, that's in your mask and not in the air around you waiting for everyone around you breath in... It happened to me once while exiting a plane, my hands were all loaded with bags so I couldn't cover my face properly, if I'd had COVID at the time and wasn't wearing that mask I would probably have infected 10s of people with that one sneeze. There's plenty that govt's have done wrong in this situation. But masks in close quaters (not outside) are such a simple and obvious risk mitigation that it's mind blowing people are politicising it. Without them we'd need far harsher distancing measures that render even partial opening of businesses even harder.
shadders replied:
Here's a really simple thought exercise... If you had to stand a metre in front of one of two people who you knew both had COVID, only one of them is wearing a mask. Which would you choose? What if you had to stand there while they sneezed?
shadders replied:
"they are doing it to protect themselves" -- that was meant to say "they are NOT doing it to protect themselves"
marquee replied:
Sad thing is masks have been politicised to give the illusion that the government are "doing something". However, I prefer to look at the science and the data, being a data guy by profession. A fellow from the Royal College of Surgeons recently wrote to the Guardian newspaper and said that he no longer recommends masks after reviewing the evidence. This is especially true for viruses given the mind-bogglingly small nature of the particles. They are more effective against bacteria. Take a look at this thread https://twitter.com/boriquagato/status/1286658667388063747
The upshot is, you CANNOT HIDE under the duvet from a virus. The sooner we accept that and stop wrecking global trade the better. Moreover, some studies suggest that masks actually INCREASE the rate of infection.
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glauce replied:
This is the kind of discussion I consider worth having, trying to get to the bottom of a problem with genuine sentiments and opinions from different perceptions of a situation. Thank you@shadders and@marquee, this is very refreshing! I don't know if we can ever come to a consensus on this one, but if we can do something here to validate freedom of speech, that wouldn't be a bad result at all. Masks seem to heat people up beyond the norm, all of us, but is not too hard to understand the grievances, or empathise with@shadders' concerns. Still, I can't help but think of the mask issue as a detail. We don't have access to the truth very easily these days, but I can see where@marquee is coming from, I read some solid material supporting his views and am alert to those facts, but most of all, I am alert to any possible erosion of human rights, reason for looking at the constitution and laws that have been modified to accommodate a whole new set of possible intrusions on liberty. That is what I am focusing on, with passion, it is our future after all.
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marquee replied:
Well said@glauce, this things should be guidelines or recommendations from government. Not mandates.
sandysmoothie replied:
“I prefer to look at the science and the data” - Makes a vague reference to a letter in the paper and links to a tweet... Free speech is great and I love it but of course the problem right now is that societies that were willing to give up some liberties recovered the quickest and are now the fastest rising economies. While we in the west spin our wheels on whether to wear masks. Here in the US it’s a different story. The doctors who have been studying infectious diseases at NIH for decades are actually going against the current administration with their recommendations. It’s hard to see them as going political when these findings do nothing but damage to them and cause them frustration with no upside. They recommend wearing masks btw.
orac replied:
@shadders I’m no expert but I believe the number one reason Japanese wear surgical masks is for protection against allergies.
shadders replied:
No
its truely depressing.... same shit here. Except, I go to a PUBLIC OPEN OUTDOOR PARK with the kids and the security chases me down to wear I mask. I just tell them no. Seriously what are they going to do, arrest me? But its annoying AF.
bitcoinsteffen replied:
Sad situation.
Emigration is the only option I've found that works. I don't have to deal with that BS here.
liam replied:
What country are you in?
glauce replied:
Haha, that is thorough, well done!
about the same retardation as you must wear a mask to walk into the gym but you dont have to wear it while inside. Like what?? Well problem solved now. Gyms closing tommorow again.
glauce replied:
Choicest word -- retardation -- excellent@pleb!
Why are you exempt?
glauce replied:
Exempt of what? I am curious about your question.
marquee replied:
I'm exempt because I am.
glauce tipped:
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1 year ago
mephisto replied:
Sorry I thought you were serious. I agree that there are some rules that make no sense, but I would bet it is pretty hard to get everyone pleased during a pandemic. I think what you should do is to take a job as a public servant and do a better job instead of acting like an idiot. But I know you prefer to just live your life serving only your self and trying to please only yourself, but I think the least you should do is this: For every criticism please suggest 3 different well thought solutions. Maybe this will help you grow up a little bit.
glauce replied:
Obviously,@marquee is being serious about thinking for himself on this very important matter... something that I believe should come before anything else, specially when being served inconsistencies... reliable data first, then hearsay. Off course, you are free to disagree.
orac tipped:
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1 year ago
mephisto replied:
I would like to hear his suggestions for public health measures regarding the pandemic in the UK. That would be interesting.
mephisto replied:
That would be "thinking for himself".
marquee replied:
@mephisto if you are going to destroy millions of small businesses, cause widespread depression, increased suicide rate, cancelled hospital appointments, increased death due to undiagnosed cancer, personal financial ruin for millions, social isolation, closed schools, removal of joy from everyday life you had better have a FUCKING GOOD REASON. Much better to actually THINK and look at data, science, facts, the truth than give up an unprecedented amount of freedoms and civil rights on a whim. People like YOU are the problem here and it's beyond disappointing. I am quite capable of deciding for myself what the right thing to do is, and so should everyone else. If you want to wet the bed and stay inside, then by all means do that, just don't force it on me. If you can be bothered to do any research you will find that: * Lockdowns do not work * Masks do not work * You cannot hide from a virus that is 100 times smaller than the smallest bacteria * We have never in human history locked down global trade and the fallout has not even been fully felt yet. This will be one of the largest mistakes humans have ever made.
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glauce replied:
I agree it would be helpful to be able to offer "effective" alternative solutions, but what do you think would be the response if we were to act on them?
glauce replied:
@mephisto... that would be thinking you CAN have a democratic dialogue, you would be basically "thinking with them", ignoring the barriers they put in front of you.
glauce replied:
I admire you@marquee... not only for seeing through the mud, but also for speaking your mind loud and clear!
marquee replied:
@glauce if it were me in power I would suggest the following: * The metabolically unhealthy, elderly, infirm, or those with low Vit. D levels should self-isolate for 4 weeks. If they need help with groceries, etc, then that should be given. * Everyone else just go about your business as normal No laws required.
orac tipped:
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1 year ago
glauce replied:
Agree 100%@marquee... Sweden has been dealing with this in a similar fashion and it is working nicely, although the "news" try to convince you otherwise... well, I prefer to hear it from the horse's mouth, from people who actually live there... yes, they say it works... also, they will probably be the only country in the world to achieve true immunity.
orac tipped:
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1 year ago
orac replied:
Spot on@marquee. As you rightly say, the scientific data shows mask are ineffective and lock downs do nothing to stop the infection curve. What we do have, however, is a pandemic of hysteria.
marquee tipped:
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1 year ago
glauce replied:
"Pandemic of hysteria"... haha, great one@orac
mephisto replied:
Discussing in any internet forum is time consuming and I am coming to the conclusion that it is also useless. Those who have the time to do so probably have little useful things to do. That said,@marquee , let me dispute some of your points: 1 - IDK where you did your research but none of your points are known and proven facts. Maybe your dietary experiments are messing with your brain :D It is not "millions" of small businesses, if you are referring to the UK. 2 - "widespread depression, increased suicide rate, cancelled hospital appointments, increased death due to undiagnosed cancer, personal financial ruin for millions, social isolation, closed schools, removal of joy from everyday life" All these issues are caused by the existence of a pandemic, not by social distancing. If a very high high prevalence of Covid19 is allowed those things will happen anyway but with much more deaths. A sharp increase in the number of cases has also a destructive effect in the economy. Even Sweden that is a very resourceful country is suffering one of the biggest economic crisis in its history. It is a cascade of events that are triggered by the pandemic. Other countries that have less resources will suffer even more. Regarding delayed consultations, they are unavoidable but more manageable if you don't have 90+% of your health resources dedicated to treating sick Covid patients. "The metabolically unhealthy, elderly, infirm, or those with low Vit. D levels should self-isolate for 4 weeks. If they need help with groceries, etc, then that should be given. * Everyone else just go about your business as normal" Don't be ridiculous, how does this solve the problem? The real hope is to keep the cases the lowest as possible while maintaining the most activities normal until we have a vaccine or a treatment or herd immunity. How can you consider yourself capable when you are so dumb and shortsighted? Maybe the answer is contained in the question... Why doctors have to study medicine anyway? Why specialise in public health? Why science? Why? why?
mephisto replied:
My hope is that what I see in social media is not representative of humanity.
glauce replied:
In case it disappears, I made a PDF of that page
mephisto replied:
Ohhhhh, you better keep that PDF in a safe, or THEY, the evil men that are orchestrating ALL this will find you! Please evolve, it is not that hard. It is embarrassing to present that page as evidence. I will stop ruining your circle jerk, bye.
glauce replied:
Good bye@mephisto, it was nice to have your input, without you, that page wouldn't be here. Thank you!
Vent away my friend! I wish everybody did it, just as you are, so we realise faster there are many more of us in this boat... lets rock it!!!
To add to my comment below, this article is absolute dynamite. Details how Fauci, the White House spokesman for the Coronavirus epidemic, had a hand to play in its creation. It ties in to Fauci being a climate change nutter. https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/10/16/backstory-origins-of-the-covid-19-virus/
It’s completely ridiculous mate. Their stupid computer pandemic models have got it disastrously wrong. There’s little evidence that the masks are effective. The results of the lockdowns show them to be largely ineffective and increasing the death rate in other medical areas relating to cancer treatment, suicide, etc. And to top it off it’s putting a wrecking ball through the economy that will take decades to recover from. It’s mass hysteria writ large all over a virus than is no worse than a bad common flu.
It's called clown world. We are fixing it. Please stand by.
marquee replied:
I've been standing by since March, lobbying my MP and refusing to obey these ridiculous laws. Now what? I need to get a sense of humour about it but it's hard when millions of lives are being ruined and suicides are soaring.
miggy replied:
Encourage others to do the same, I suppose, except for lobbying the MP will probably not do much unfortunately. Breaking the conditioning is never easy, but it has to be done.