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Is anyone working on creating tokens without backtracking? It would open so many doors if done scalably.
kenshishido tipped:
0.04 USD
1 year ago
What are you trying to do?
joe replied:
@elas_digital I think at the time I was thinking about ways in which we could make conditional payments based on tokens. That is, pay token A to X and then other tokens or BSV are able to be spend by Y. It is definitely doable in Script if we don't have backtracking. Ethereum does this by having a shared state that every transaction can modify via. That way conditionals are simple as making a contract that says (if token A is being sent to X, update memory to state Q) and later (if memory is at state Q is send token B to Y). This is part of the reason why it's unscalable, all transactions and contracts can modify the same state, and the main motivation behind sharding. On Bitcoin, assuming we don't have backtracking for tokens, it would be as simple as adding requirements to the OP_PUSH_TX preimage. For example, we can assert that an input being spent has a ScriptPubKey of Token A and that one of the outputs allow BSV or tokens to be spent by Y. At that point you have all the benefits of Ethereum with the scalability of Bitcoin.
volt tipped:
0.06 USD
1 year ago
Merkle tree storage does make it easier to backtrack, because there is only one single global UTXO chain, instead of tracking each separate token UTXO. https://powping.com/posts/90f43b4ef88cdb6276281f573367b5309a4fb6877eac6099900d22b487022ae3 If only there was a way to ensure the head/first of the chain is a token issuance, then the backtracking problem is solved. Maybe using some kind of merkle proof?
musiq tipped:
0.01 USD
2 years ago
joe replied:
Maybe we can ask miners to not mine replay attack UTXOs
elas_digital replied:
This is not a problem for Elas tokens as the UTXO is the token. Once its spent you can't double spend it or replay it... the transactions are indistinguishable from Bitcoin.
volt replied:
@elas_digital. Sounds like colored coin
mr_word replied:
@elas_digital the challenge is also to ensure they can be verified entirely in SPV, without depending on an indexer to attest that a tx history is complete. See@xhliu's earlier post about tokens-without-backtracking to see the limitations / possible attacks on tokens that don't use push_tx introspection to assert forward conditions on token spends
mr_word replied:
@joe if we had miner cooperation we could introduce a generalized unique ID tree in L1 which would basically solve all limitations of bitcoin's L1 in one fell swoop
xhliu replied:
@mr_word What is this ID tree?
mr_word replied:
@xhliu basically imagine your NFT design, where each one can also issue sub-NFTs, except miners enforce that only this tree of transactions is allowed (prevent the attacks you described). Then you could use this ID tree within your token/NFT design to also prevent those same attacks.
mr_word replied:
You can think of an NFT like that as an "address space" so that there is state that is global, but still with parallel validation (the synchronization happens when transactions are constructed)