@elas_digital is on PowPing!

PowPing is a place where you can earn Bitcoin simply by socializing, for FREE.
Never tried Bitcoin? It's OK! Just come, socialize, and earn Bitcoin.
Check out elas_digital's activities
Total Economy: 0.55 USD
I just created a second blog post outlining the Elas token system: https://elas.digital/blog/f/elas-ledgers-and-satoshi-tokens Please enjoy and comment
musiq tipped:
0.05 USD
2 weeks ago
unwriter tipped:
jackd tipped:
0.13 USD
2 weeks ago
Some of these points seem like they're potentially a big deal. Could you explain which of these are unique to Elas? I read the whole article and they sound great, but think it would be great to know the main "distinguishing factors" Elas provides.
john tipped:
0.04 USD
1 week ago
elas_digital replied:
I would say that no requirement for any type of script, pushdata or FALSE RETURN output is unique to us in the space. Some token systems require one or more of these items to operate, but we require none. No agent is an interesting one although not unique when looked at next to OP_TX style tokens which lock the token into a look-back script to ensure they are being properly spent - which you can do with these tokens anyway. Usability within a Metanet framework is definitely a plus, but most extant systems would be able to achieve this with minor extension. So for me the most unique feature is that it is the simplest, lowest overhead token you can create today, and because of that simplicity, you can easily embed it into highly complex systems without causing disruption. That's not something you can say for many of the other token systems available today.
unwriter tipped:
0.11 USD
2 weeks ago
john replied:
Are Elas tokens 1 for 1 with BSV tokens? Are they sitting on a single BSV token (1 satoshi)? Is there a way to have more than 1 Elas token per BSV satoshi? Can a larger BSV UTXO set be assigned to each Elas token, such that it has a higher intrinsic value?
elas_digital replied:
The whole point of the Elas token is that you are ignoring the value of the underlying satoshi. It essentially becomes the paper that the token is printed on. At the same time, whatever the 'token' is, you can have more than one of them on a single satoshi - i.e. a $100 bill, a 10 ride train ticket, or any number of different things...
elas_digital replied:
Currently due to dust rules we have to have around 1000 satoshis to create an effective token that's useful in most common scripts, however eventually the idea is to go to 1 satoshi. Miners are overly hesitant in my humble opinion...
john tipped:
0.11 USD
1 week ago
john replied:
"...the underlying satoshi... becomes the paper that the token is printed on..." In complete agreement here, and in fact I think it can be considered a GOOD thing the dust limit exists (so long as each miner decides independently) as well as pruning. https://medium.com/@EquityDiamonds/what-is-bitcoin-903779fdc5c5
elas_digital replied:
Actually the dust limit is a major inhibitor of our system at scale... It multiplies our costs and limits our functionality.
john replied:
I agree with you here, but to me it’s a problem which can be fixed by the marketplace no? Why dictate what is best for Nodes when incentive is enough? If a node can gain advantage by lowering dust limit, he will. In the meantime I think the dust limit and pruning can be great for BitCoin. It’s forced obsolescence of data which is no longer valued. By having dust limits the Nodes force devs and users to evaluate which data they have on chain is important. This is something Google cloud or Apple cloud or AWS lacks and it leads to things like 1.9 mm search returns on google where maybe only ONE is relevant. For instance we don’t need 100 million people etching the soccer score into the blockchain when the Workd Cup official entity is just one official score for all. No one goes past the 2nd search page on google searches.
john replied:
From Elas perspective U want your tokens to be as cheap as possible. But Nodes want data-on-chain to be as cheap as possible for them— so their worst nightmare is devs flood chain with nonsense. Some apps are already defaulting to the 2019 FALSE-RETURN model of 0 value BitCoin in spendables and hoping it’s not pruned. By I think it’s good for BitCoin if Nodes prune all FALSE-RETURNs. Useless data is a tragedy of the commons— it’s a tax on all of us as it raises fees due to miners having larger expenses. Frankly, it’s communism. We can also think of dust limit and pruning as recycling. If Elas provides a customer with tokens for a train which goes out of business bc airplanes make them useless (New York to LA passenger cars service for instance), then those tokens are taking up valuable space. But they won’t be “cleaned up” and repurposed/recycled for a hundred years. 1000 bit tokens puts a small burden on the train company. Since BSV Is delflationary what was once $0.002 Might in 10 years become 20 cents. Then the train company would have a monetary incentive to either continue supporting as many BSV tokens as before or consolidating (efficient bc it lessens the burden of obtaining tokens for Elas’s other customers who might be able to make far more money with those tokens— OR the train company can spend tge 20¢ UTXO sets. Ultimately at scale especially this would be great for Elas. If this theory is wrong then it’s possible Gilder was closer to correct in wanting a stable value for BSV from the early days. But I think CSW is correct in limiting the supply—- bc BSV will stabilize its value as we progress down the timeline. Very much like Standard Oil monopoly was the best thing to ever happen to oil price stability. (Lack of volatility)
john replied:
Supposed to be UNspendables when referring to FALSE RETURN— damn iOS autocorrect.
elas_digital replied:
There is always a way to remove tokens from an Elas ledger. If a train company who went bust had 20 million ticket tokens in outputs it could no longer control, administrators could provably show to node operators that the tokens belonged to them creating a means for those operators to move them. It's about law.
john replied:
If the train company is liquidating in bankruptcy court and they own 500,000 sats the bankruptcy court may just consider that amount worthless & just dispose of the wallet. 10 years later everyone forgets these tokens ever existed, no one claims them, and they remain garbaged forever. Yet imagine BSV is $200,000 per coin & those formerly valueless 500,000 tokens are now worth $1,000. Instead of being useful to someone, they are effectively burned. Alternative is train company uses $1,000 worth of UTXOs for their token base of 500,000– at 1,000 BSV tokens per train token (2 pennies). This is ridiculously cheap outlay, yet bankruptcy court won’t overlook $1,000 of BSV asset. 10 years later the creditors have $1 million worth of BSV. No loss of BSV from temporary insignificance. Everyone wins.
elas_digital replied:
How does the next guy issue a token when he needs $1,000,000 just to buy the Bitcoin?
john replied:
Fluid market dynamics. As BSV goes up in price, Nodes make dust-limit smaller, right? Only natural, and good for the Nodes to compete in the downward direction. So we just let them compete and determine what's economical for them. Lets say the train company doesn't go bankrupt, but their $1,000 in 2020 expenditures to set up their tokens on Elas Digital, is now "marked to market" at $1million! Great for them: they simply do another Elas Digital transaction, set up brand new tokens on smaller UTXO sets (maybe 10 satoshis this time, instead of 1,000?) and then spend the remainder! So they end up with a capital gain on BSV as the BSV price rises, and occasionally they can just change out their old tokens for new tokens. Now you could get into some interesting models too. Elas could hold custody of their initial tokens, thus reap the capital gains while coming up with a method to do the transitions. Heck, if BSV goes up steadily, Elas Digital could end up with more revenues from using a higher-UTXO-set for its first customers. Again, everyone wins. To me the dust limit AND pruning are a great thing. It turns BSV into a virtual "Tree of Souls" (Avatar ref). Unlike say Google where you get an absurd 151,000 search results for "popty ping", on the Metanet you'd hope there's maybe a small handful. How many versions of the same thing do we need, especially for esoteric things (like the definition of popty ping!). BSV MONETARILY incentivizes people to not waste space on the ledger with nonsense, by having the empty tokens have a value. This is exactly the real estate model in an efficient city. As the buildings get progressively taller and the city richer, the empty lots go up in price. This dynamic FORCES proper economic decisions. Do we tear down the Old Lady and Shoe house, and put up a 80 story skyscraper? Probably. Just like in the city, the Old Lady needs to decide if her house is sentimentally worth more than the 10 million dollars a Manhattan developer is offering her to move. The concept is more fleshed-out here: https://medium.com/@EquityDiamonds/what-is-bitcoin-903779fdc5c5 but to me, it SEEMS more in keeping with the traditions of A). Letting Nodes decide what's best for them, based on competition and economic factors. B). Not having to change anything about the protocol. Thinking about how new rules should be shaped for Nodes regarding data could be a bit messy. Rather than force Nodes to acknowledge and save the OP_0 OP_RETURN spendless "coins", we force users and app developers to decide how much nonsense they want to put up onto the chain. In this regard, I really like what@unwriter has done with PowPing by keeping "chatter" OFF chain. BUT, when someone posts something worthwhile, which garners a tip in BSV, he then posts it on chain. But if it's TRULY worthwhile, maybe he shouldn't "burn" it on chain with OP_0/RETURN, but instead post it in an OP_PUSHDATA and then give the powping user the decision to keep that post on-chain (to earn more) or to spend it and let the post get pruned. I've got two apps which will both have some in common with this model. So I'm looking for feedback on this concept, as its important to how we want to format our thing-majigs.
john replied:
Also, the end result is identical to your vision, of 1-satoshi tokenizations. As BSV climbs in price over the decades, 1-satoshi becomes worth something, but also is the last stop on the downward trajectory of dust-limits. In other words, we can let economics take the dust-limit down to zero anyway. There could be other problems with this methodology. So I value your expert feedback. Not so much with the dust limit or pruning, but we probably still need data to be valued differently. There's an OCEAN between AWS or iCloud prices for data storage (& cloud access) and BSV data storage cost (0.25-0.50 sats/Byte). Guessing Teranode will address this, along with Metanet protocol. But lacking info on those two, as they're both all patent-wrapped at the moment!
elas_digital replied:
I don’t make business decisions on the basis of any future Speculation on value of BSV. That is a dangerous way to work. The dust limit does more than just limit how small we can make our coins. It also limits the sizes of the scripts that we can use with our coins and makes it unnecessarily expensive to mint tokens.
john replied:
Elas, what are the numbers for those? The script size and an example of what minted tokens might cost for your Tesla insurance idea for example?
elas_digital replied:
So the dust limit isn’t just limited to 546 bytes. It is dynamically calculated based on the size of a Script. The 546 Satoshi dust limit assumes a normal P2PKH output is being used. If I mint a token with 1000 satoshis in it, that token is restricted to being spent into output scripts less than 191 bytes.
john tipped:
0.04 USD
4 days ago
elas_digital replied:
As for the Tesla insurance, I have some ideas that would make it very efficient transaction wise. Still working on IP for it.
john replied:
Cool, since I don't understand where those numbers emirate, is this kind of thing on BitCoin SV Wiki or some other site which describes it well? Maybe someone wrote a good outline of how dust limit is failing certain use cases? Always looking to learn more about the dust limit as its going to become very important in the near future.
elas_digital replied:
I would spend time documenting it on the wiki but it's going to be gone in less than 6 months so I'm not too worried. It is covered in brief in this section on protocol rules: https://wiki.bitcoinsv.io/index.php/Protocol#Local_rules
Great stuff. "The key thing is that each and every Satoshi token is unique, giving us the ability to attach serial numbers, artwork and more with and allowing the fungibility of the units to be determined as a rule set by the issuer" ☝️ Is this one of the unique qualities of Elas? (That both fungible and non fungible tokens can be built using the same low level building block instead of existing as a separate class)
elas_digital replied:
I don’t know that it’s unique but it’s certainly a feature.
78f23649c713e0012870953c0830172d20f9cca61c98830f6132e5b4eaf91fed
unwriter replied:
ok have you just tokenized your post? :)
elas_digital replied:
Haha no this is our test ledger. We made a bunch of coins to test our wallet. It’s working as expected.